Disabled veterans come together to discuss the importance of sport to identity, belonging and community, drawing parallels to their times serving in the armed forces.
West Ham United fan, Cathy Bayford, Manchester United supporter, Rick Clement, and Level Playing Field trustee, Steve Evans, join the charity’s media & communications officer, Joseph Crabtree, for this episode of the podcast.
Recorded in advance of Armed Forces Day, the roundtable discussion covers the unique camaraderie of military life, challenges of transitioning to civilian life, and why accessible live sport continues to be such an important part of their lives.
The podcast episode can be found here, or via your chosen podcast platform and the full transcript is available below.
Joseph Crabtree: Welcome to the Level Playing Field podcast. I’m Joseph Crabtree, the charity’s media and communications officer, filling in for our usual host, Liam Bird. Today we’re delighted to be joined by three guests for an episode focused on the armed forces with links to disability and sports fandom. So without further ado, let’s meet our guests. Could each of you introduce yourselves, tell us what sports you follow, who you support, and give us a brief overview of your time in the armed forces.
Rick Clement: Hi, I’m Rick Clement. I’m a huge Man United fan and I love a bit of boxing and UFC as well as, uh, that I served with the Duke of Lancaster Regiment, which is an infantry unit in the British Army.
Cathy Bayford: I’m Cathy Bayford. I support West Ham United and I’m the co-chair of the Disabled Supporters’ Association there. I served uh, 20 years in the RAF as a survival equipment fitter. I came out I a medical discharge two years short of what I should have served.
Steve Evans: Hi, I’m Steve Evans, I’m a Liverpool supporter for my sins. I live on the Wirral, so very close to the stadium, not too far away there. I’m also a trustee for Level Playing Field and I was in the Remeat Royal Electrical mechanical engineers for 17 years and I came out on options for change when the Berlin Wall came down and um, they reduced the size of the armed forces. So I did 17 years in the end.
Joseph Crabtree: Quite a range of backgrounds in there. So, it’ll be interesting to hear from you each throughout this podcast episode. Something to all of you. What first attracted you to uh, being in the armed forces as an idea? And what are your memories that stand out most when you look back on your career as a whole?
Steve Evans: I actually wanted to join the army from when I was a child. It was one of those childhood things. I want to m. Join the army. I want to be in the army. I want to do this. So that’s exactly what I did. I also had the option of joining the rafa. Both of them, uh, uh, accepted me and they fought it out between them. Anyway, I ended up in the REMI and which is pretty much what I wanted to do. I always wanted to join the army and do something fiddling with mechanics. So I ended up in the Remy as a vehicle mechanic working on tanks. And I loved every minute of it, believe it or not, apart from the middle of the night when you stood on sentry duty at 3:00am, uh, in the pouring rain. Other than that, I really did enjoy it.
Cathy Bayford: I could come back with you on that one, Steve. So, um, I joined the raf, uh, mostly because, um, the Navy, the RAF and the Royal Navy shared a CIO office, Careers Information Office, uh, in Torquay, which is where I’m from initially. It just happened that the day that I went down there, it was the RAF’s turn, um, and that was the July and I started my basic training in November, so they didn’t waste any time in uh, signing me up. But apart from the obvious of the injury, I really enjoyed my time and I’ve still got a lot of friends I see regularly. I think that’s the big thing with the forces. I love my time upset to leave.
Rick Clement: Yeah, I didn’t really have a reason. It was a bit random. I just started looking for something to do after school. I did quite well at school, got good GCSEs but didn’t want to go to college. And then the list of jobs that, that gave me an opportunity to travel, keep fit and the things that I was interested in were pretty much all armed, um, forces based and that’s what kind of had me down that path. I uh, loved it. You know. Sadly I was injured in Afghanistan and had to leave after 14 years to an abrupt end. But yeah, it’s the, the best times of my life. There’s lots of great memories.
Joseph Crabtree: Quite interesting just hearing you all talk about those entry routes that some of those aligned most with me in this job as how people ended up supporting their clubs and going whichever various direction they did. You just kind of fall into it and then you end up going and it, it seems obvious, it seem, seems like that was, was meant to be, uh, in terms of you each following all of your clubs while you were part of uh, the armed forces. That, that’s something that I imagined can be complicated logistically and, and for all kinds of reasons. So, so what role did, did sport and following it play for each of you while you were on your, your time away or in Ukraine? The armed forces as a whole? If, if we start with you, Rick?
Rick Clement: Yeah, for me, um, it varied. Obviously if you were based in the uk, you could get two matches but you couldn’t have a season ticket. You just, it would have been difficult to, to get back and forth and commit every weekend because you just sort of never knew what you were doing that far in the future. But I uh, remember some great times in Iraq and stuff where they, they managed to put a bit of a screen up in a tent and British uh, Forces TV played the matches. So we’d all sit and have, you know, just some time together. And it was an escape away from, from what were difficult, hard, uh, working tours in hot weather, just to feel a bit of normality, having a crack with the other fans, different teams and you know, that was always a big part of it. And there was so many. I was like a northwest based regiment. So there was so many northwest based teams, local derbys and such that the banter was great.
Cathy Bayford: It’s actually the RAS fault that I’m supporting West Ham United because, um, I met my husband and he is the initial hammer. I’ve taken over the club since, ah, since we got married. So, uh, yeah, of course when I was, uh, when I was serving there wasn’t much women’s football going on. I went to a few international games. Sometimes you were able to get a few tickets, uh, through the Forces Network and something I’d like to see encouraged a little bit more. But again, um, as Rick said, you know, it would be really difficult. I think with the raf, you do tend to stay in one base for a while. Um, I was stationed, uh, at one station for nine years, but that was Cardiff, so I wasn’t going to get across to, um, to East London very much from there.
Steve Evans: I hated being away from Liverpool Football Club, you know, because I grew up supporting them. You know, your family got me into, uh, supporting Liverpool. Uh, and it was difficult when I joined the army, but, you know, that was my choice. I wanted to do that. And of course, you know, you’ve got to, you’ve got to do something, you’ve got to get a job or do something when you finish school. So that’s what I did. And I found it difficult. And it was, it was a total detachment because I spent most of my time in Germany, apart from the odd tour here and there, you know, Northern Ireland, the Gulf, whatever, but most of it, you just could not access tv. I mean, you had radio. Yeah, you couldn’t access tv. Uh, even radio was difficult if you were on exercise or you were in a, um, war zone or whatever. So it was really difficult. I mean, sometimes I go, I could go for two weeks without finding out the result of a game. So, you know, it was, that was really frustrating and difficult, but again, you sort of got used to it. And, um, then came the, uh, age of the video recorder, when people would send you videos across from the UK and you’d put them in the old Betamax or whatever it was, you know, video recorder and watch games that were like literally weeks and weeks old, you know, just so you could catch up on them and you know, you get stuff sent over via Forces Mail or whatever, you know, the old snail mail as it was then. No email and attachments. Then of course, as Rick mentioned or alluded to, we had BFPs, British Forces Broadcasting Service TV. Uh, and they eventually, at some point, I can’t remember when they started broadcasting, uh, Grandstand on a Saturday afternoon. So you were able to keep up with your team that way. So that was one benefit. But other than that, in the week you were, you were pretty much stuffed apart from radio news bulletins or uh, whatever. So it was really frustrating and really difficult to miss. But again, that, that was life and you, you know, you put up with it. I remember one particular game, I was in Canada at the time. It was about five hours after the FA cup final in 1989 I think, and Liverpool had beaten Everton. I didn’t have any idea what the result was until it came back off the uh, the live firing exercise and somebody says, oh, I watched, managed to watch the game. Do you know what the score was? And I didn’t have a clue. These days I wouldn’t, I, I’d either be at the game or I’d have it on TV or at ah, very least on a radio. So you’re constantly in touch with your team, but back in the day it was just completely separate. And that was the way it was
Joseph Crabtree: recording this in the middle of a World cup. So having 12 hours of live football constantly available and then 12 hours of talking about the previous 12 hours. It seems a world away to be waiting two weeks for the Premier League results, which was the biggest shock that came through to you in that time,
Steve Evans: which was the happy surprise Liverpool beat Crystal Palace 9 nil. One or two of you might remember this, you probably won’t be Joey, but, um, I was sat in a tank in the middle of nowhere, tuned in a radio to best station that could pick up and got the news bullet in Liverpool at 190. I was like particularly pleased about that. And obviously when they won the FA cup final to find out about it, you know, even though I couldn’t see it, that was great as well. But that was also the same year of Hillsborough and I had to sort of watch that on tv, you know, the, when the disaster unfolded. And that was really quite difficult because normally I would have either been at the game myself or. And I knew a lot of friends who’d gone to that game. So that was quite difficult, you know, not being around at home and all that and having to take all that in. So that was a, a difficult minute. But uh, all moments, but the FA cup final that we won and I didn’t know about it until afterwards was. Yeah, it’s a great moment when you find out.
Joseph Crabtree: I think it’s interesting you, you’ve all kind of already mentioned some of the other people you served with and, and the word we often hear for that is camaraderie. I don’t know how much that’s, that’s a civilian thing or how much it rings true really, but, but what does that mean to each of you? I guess. And is it something you miss today?
Steve Evans: To a certain extent, yeah, definitely miss it. Camaraderie was massive in the forces for me. I mean it doesn’t matter if you, uh, your regiment or the army in general. You’re all like, seem to work as a team and you could narrow that down not just to your regiment or your core or your squad, whatever size group you were in. If it was a brick, which was four people going in Northern Ireland for example, that was your mini team, you all stuck together. And the camaraderie, you do anything, you’d watch their back. You’d, you know, even if things went wrong for them, you’d be there to pick up the pieces and vice versa. And you’d hope that uh, they’d do the same for you. I mean it was so strong I found in the forces and it had to be at times, you know, you needed that because you needed someone to watch you back because you never knew sometimes where the enemy was coming from. It was, especially in places like Northern Ireland, you just didn’t know to a certain extent. It is still in football, isn’t it? You still get it. You go to a game and you, you sit with your disabled, well, us guys anyway, with your disabled or uh, ambulance people, uh, your friends and you have that, you still have that bond, don’t you still stick together.
Cathy Bayford: It’s the bond and the banter, isn’t it? It’s the banter that uh, came with forces camaraderie. I think, um, that perhaps civilians don’t always get. Perhaps that’s because you’ve, you know, you’re facing different challenges that we become perhaps a little bit light hearted. Bit like when we’re having really bad day with whatever we’re having to cope with now. Sometimes your sense of humour gets you through it and it was the same back then. When I joined up, I was one, um, it was an all girl course in my trade and it was the first one that they’d ever had through RAF didn’t know what hit them. Um, so six of the 12 were still in touch. And this is 45 years later and we will now meet up every November and we go to uh, march at the Cenotaph as part of our trade. And that’s when you really see the camaraderie, uh, come together. You don’t see your pals from one year to the next. And every November you’re all there, uh, with your squadron colours on and you’re wearing your medals and it’s just you’re all back together.
Joseph Crabtree: And Rick, I know you talked about going along to matches even with, with some of the people you served with. So yeah, I guess. Where, where’s camaraderie at for you?
Rick Clement: Yeah, it’s insane. It’s difficult to explain to somebody that hasn’t served in the military what it’s like. A lot of those people I serve with are pretty much like family now, my brothers. The sense of un thing is sometimes a coping mechanism. I think of some of the things you see and go through and whilst some people be horrified that you laugh at those things, that’s the only way you can kind of process it in a weird way. And then when you’ve been through those things with those people side by side, whether that’s walking forward, taking fire or, or whatever situation it might be, you can’t ever kind of explain that to somebody who hasn’t been in. So you’ve got those experiences that only those people by the by, sorry, by side on that those days can understand. So there’s, there’s that as well. Just you sort of feel like only those people in the world can understand you.
Joseph Crabtree: And I think if you all wanting to still connect with those people, it’s clear there’s, there’s things you still wanting to keep from that stage of your life.
So what was the biggest adjustment that you had to make at the end of your military career? Cathy, we’ll start with you.
Cathy Bayford: Once I was fit enough to hold um, down a job of some description. I had a part time job and I, um, couldn’t get over. Um, at five o’ clock everyone just put down their pens and papers or switched off their computers, wherever they were, half written, letter, whatever, they just stop and go. The bins would be overflowing and no one would have emptied them and things like that. Uh, working in a civilian environment was really odd because we would finish the job before we Left. That was really strange. And getting them to accept my sense of humour, I had to really readjust that. Talking about sense of humour and perhaps, um, I mean we find some of the banter on the football terraces can be challenging. Yeah, I suppose you could put it on the same, same line as that
Steve Evans: can mirror what you’re saying, uh, there, Kathy, to be honest. I mean I didn’t really have a lot of problems adapting force. You can tell most of the time you can tell a squaddie or a soldier or a forces person straight away when you’re in Civie street you go, that person was in the army. It’s the sense of humour, the way you act, it’s just something different. And it was that above the job. I couldn’t get, I couldn’t get my head around that. I’d go to work and I’d want to finish a job before I’d knock off for the day. Because that’s what you did in the army. It was like you just stay there and get on with it, wouldn’t you? And then once it’s done you could go home. But of course in Civvie street you go, as you say, five o’, clock, pen down, go home. It’s like, hang on, it won’t be 10 minutes, just got to finish this off. No, let’s go. You know, it’s a bit strange to adapt to, to start with, isn’t it?
Rick Clement: It was strange for me because I got quite badly injured in Afghanistan by the time I’d spent a lot of time in recovery and rehab, um, over like a two year period and then I was discharged at the end of that, uh, by, by the time I was discharged I felt like I’d been out the army forever. It was, it was really strange. So unlike a lot of my friends who’ve come out and really, really struggled to adapt with the changes and all the things like paying council tax and all the millions of little things that sort of people just, um, in the military just don’t, don’t understand it. Nobody tells us. And um, so all, all those things kind of happened without me knowing while I was busy. And for me it was almost quite an easy transition because I was so busy with recovery. But I have spent a lot of time with my friends who get out and I mean I’ve had people living with me and all sorts because they struggled that badly to get jobs or if they get a job, to stay in that job because of the sense of humour and clashes and sometimes misunderstood. Um, so it is, it’s a real thing where it can be difficult to almost leave your family, leave the routine, leave meals being cooked for you, all those things, um, to, to kind of have to fend for yourself.
Steve Evans: You say it is a massive transition, that you, you get to be looked after in the army and you know, a lot of things done for you, even though you capable, more than capable looking after yourself, but things are done for you. You know, everything’s organised, you will be here at a certain time, you do this, you do the. So you just get on with it. So when you come to Civi Streams, what’s this council tax law, I’ve got to organise. What’s, you know, what, what have I got to go and do this for? And you know, normally things like that are organised for you and you’re just not used to it and it is, it is quite difficult like, especially as a single soldier when you just turn up at the cook house three times a day and have your breakfast, dinner and tea. You know, you can’t do that in Civi street. You’ve got to cook it yourself or, or whatever. It’s completely different sort your own accommodation now. It was all done for you in the army. Not saying we weren’t capable of doing it because you’ve got it. You, you’re taught to work on your feet and think for yourself, but you don’t think of those things when you’re coming out the army. And um, when I say it wasn’t difficult for me to adapt, it wasn’t because I was looking at adapting six months before I came out the army and you need that additional time, you need that period to adjust and even then it’s not long enough to come in From a forces background to going into Civi street. You’ve got to have an adapt time, a time to adapt and just get used to the way of life.
Joseph Crabtree: I think that talk of transition and changing over time, all of those adjustments, brings us on quite well to each of the different disability journeys you’ve got. Um, so Rick, if you’d be happy to tell us a little bit about your journey.
Rick Clement: Yeah, sure. Um, serving out in, in Afghanistan on a foot patrol, uh, stood on top of an ied, um, so ended up losing both my legs, severely damaging my right arm and a lot of internal injuries and things that had to be fixed. So I sort of woke up um, after a three week coma having ah, um, obviously the, the main factor of losing my legs but there was all these other issues. I had catheters in and clostomy bags. And it was just an absolute nightmare for, for the three months I was in hospital, if I’m being honest, because there’s far too much time letting a bed, being able to think about all the things you now think that you can’t do. And, you know, being totally honest, I didn’t know anybody with any disability. There was obviously none serving in the army and that was that. You know, nobody in my family or friends circle just. That was just the way it is. So what I knew about what you could do and how you could adapt, what equipment there was, was. Was next to nothing. So I was fortunate in, in the fact of then going to the rehabilitation centre at Headley Court and seeing people that were injured 12 months before me, things like that, with similar injuries, and they were driving and climbing up walls and doing fitness. And so that opened my eyes to all the, all the possibilities then. And that was really the. The day that things changed in a massive positive manner and we come back to the camaraderie. That’s the day where I’m watching a power climb up a wall and I’m thinking, well, I’m going to beat him because my regiment’s better than the Paris. And, and all of that started to kick in. And, uh, Headley Court, whilst it wasn’t a strict military thing, they still had us on parade in the mornings and a few. Just little rules and routine that I was used to from the military and, and it was just, you know, a really great place to be in terms of recovery. And then next thing you know, you, you kind of spat out the other end and you’ve had all this surgery, you recovered and you’ve been taught to do all these things again and it’s time to kind of rebuild your life.
Joseph Crabtree: Um, and, and some of those things that are in place for you to have an understanding from fellow servicemen and, um, that being essential for you, is it something you think has improved since?
Rick Clement: Yeah, I think the, the military was never the best, uh, uh, care and particularly mental health and all, all the things like that. But as the years go by, uh, you know, I’ve watched charities take up a lot of those gaps, but they do seem to be better now. In the transition period that we spoke about, the soldiers get better, better prepared to the recovery and things. Has learned a lot from Iraq and Afghanistan in particular, and the amount of injuries that came from those to improve going forward. So, yeah, the steps are going in the right direction, but I always feel there’s a long way to go for everything to be as good as it should be.
Joseph Crabtree: And Cathy, if you’re happy to tell us a little bit about your journey with disability.
Cathy Bayford: Yeah, um, all very different really. Uh, mine was a workplace injury so I hurt my back and. Which believe, um, before the days of manual handling, um, training, lifting lockers and big bits of equipment around the workshop and, and that’s. I hurt my back pretty early on in my service career. I was in and out hospital for a while in traction and all sorts. I made a recovery enough to be medically upgraded to be fit to fight again. Uh, unfortunately injury was. Was there and I, over the years deteriorated. I um, worked um, with uh, the air crew on the flight line. So I would be running out to the uh, aircraft with. With kit that if they needed. If their. Their stuff had gone, um, unserviceable as they were trying to taxi off, I’d be running out my back. Just couldn’t cope. And in the end I ended up at 18 months. I was married at the time, but in a married quarter. My husband’s civilian. Um, and um. I actually for the first few months I was. I was fairly well looked after. I went to Headley Court. I didn’t last very long. It wasn’t appropriate for my injury. So I know what you’re talking about with, um, with how it was run down there. But, um, I actually ended up coming out feeling a little bit bitter because I was just forgotten. I felt was no longer needed at work. They’d replaced me in the workplace and they were trying to get me fit. So I had numerous operations and stuff until they finally said there’s nothing more we can do for you and off you go. Fortunately, I had already done some further education while I was serving in the raf. And now that’s a good thing with the forces, if you do take advantage of it, the education system is there for you to improve. And I take further adult education certificate so I’ve been able to go on into teaching. Unfortunately, that got so bad now that I, I can’t do that either. So, um, I think I’ve come out the other side now. Now I only remember the good times to, to. To how bad I felt that for those 18 months that, you know, my husband would go off to work in the morning and leave me a flask beside the bed. Couldn’t get in and out. And. And that was that. And you say now that the forces are better, uh, looking after you. And I’ve seen that with my friends who are still serving and that they’re being looked after a Lot better. Mental health issues, uh, are being addressed much, much quicker. I just wish there was more post coming out for a lot of us or a lot of the guys that it’s so obvious that isn’t there in this country. That is so obviously there. When you go to the likes of the States, when you go to a theatre and um, first, the first thing they do, they say, have we got any, any, any veterans here? And, and can you stand up? And the whole place gives them a round of applause for their service. Thank you for your service. Was in um, Canada meeting up with the girls that I joined up with actually. And we’re all screaming and, and screeching as we’re. One by one we’re all meeting up and the guy next door said, what’s going on? I said, well we’re all in the raf and, and he said, thank you for your service. You just don’t get that over here. You just don’t get that. The nearest you see to it, it’s the cenotaph, you know, the public clapping it as you’re going around armed, um, services day. We’ll see what happens then. If you march past that, you get, you’ll see people turning out, don’t get the claps that you get. Not like you get in the States.
Joseph Crabtree: The others might think differently, but the most interesting thing for me and what you said there was that you felt forgotten at one point and how much that contrasted to the sense of belonging that you all spoke about with that camaraderie that, that you’d felt otherwise. Uh, that aligns really well with um, when, when you’re at sports clubs. That sense of belonging that everyone’s got and the way that disabled people sometimes feel excluded from that because of the inaccessibility that comes with it. And at that point there’s a feeling of being forgotten and just disregarded. That connection, the sense of belonging that you had makes it all the more bitter. I don’t know how, how the journey was different for you. We’ve obviously had two very different sides to it there.
Steve Evans: Yeah, mine is totally different again. I mean I, I became somewhat disabled in the army, whereas I just uh, contracted arthritis from a very early age and I just couldn’t hardly move. But they kept me in the army and I was medically downgraded. You’re probably aware of that terminology. You two guys m. So ended up as pretty much as an office based job just doing next to nothing, which is very frustrating when you’re in the army. The best of Times, but I did that for. It was probably only a year, maybe two years of tops. And that’s when they announced that they were going to reduce the size of the armed forces. So they were looking at options for change with the Berlin Wall coming down and they wanted people to apply for voluntary redundancy and if they didn’t get enough they would then ask for or then make compulsory redundancies. So I thought I’m gonna get kicked out of them. Not carefully here because as Kathy, as, as in like, as mentioned, um, before, once, once you’re in, in a position like that, they do tend not to care about you as much and you just like cast off and like get out. We don’t want to know you anymore. It is like that, very much like that, uh, despite you know, talking about the camaraderie. So what I did is uh, I decided I’d uh, put in for voluntary redundancy. And obviously in the comments box I put, put down that I’m already medically downgraded so it makes sense for me to apply for this. And of course it wasn’t a no brainer. They, they selected me straight away. So I was selected for voluntary redundancy. So that’s how I came out. And I spent my last six months in the army in the uk, went on resettlement courses, which they’re not, they weren’t really enough at the time. Again, like you both alluded to, there wasn’t enough support there. When you’re coming out they just give you the basics and send you on your way. Uh, but it has got better. I’ve recently spoken to a few people who’ve come out in the last few years and there’s been a lot more support there for them with charities and, you know, this, that and the other helping out more. So that has, that has come on quite a long way I think. But anyway, after uh, I was discharged from the army, which was on the redundancy package, although I was disabled with arthritis, I was uh, good to go for a good few years after that. And then uh, I had um, I contracted severe pneumonia and bang, like that collapsed and I ended up in a coma in hospital for five weeks with uh, total organ failure. Everything just completely stopped working on me. Eventually came out of hospital and I was sort of deemed partly fit after three months. But when you say partly fit, I could hardly walk, I could hardly do anything. And it just took a lot of going, uh, to get myself going and mobile again. And then the arthritis that I’d had coming out the army with just went completely worse. I’ve been left with heart failure and arthritis and other conditions along with that, which is where I am now. So most of my disability, the worst part of it had nothing to do with the army. So from that point of view, the armed forces for me weren’t that bad. It was, I did all my recovery, if you like, and um, you know, uh, all the support I had was in service street disability after I came out the army and it was difficult to walk, it was difficult to go, uh, to games and all that. But you managed it. I mean I couldn’t have been a soldier at that point. I just couldn’t get around properly. But in Civi street it was manageable until such times as I had me got into my coma with the, you know, total organ failure. Then it’s been, been very difficult since then. And obviously then I registered disabled. Well, yeah, since then, obviously I’ve been a disabled football supporter.
Joseph Crabtree: And is there an ignorance in the wider community that, that people see you and, and have an understanding of disabled veterans as it’s one incident one day and then your life changes and it’s completely different the next day. You’ve all explained. I think Rick is an example that people maybe go to, but they don’t understand that there’s still a journey coming out the back end of that and an evolution in how disability impacts you. Um, but people don’t have that appreciation of the way things change.
Steve Evans: People don’t see it for what it is, to be honest. And they just see disabled and you sort of badge with ah, that as simple as that. They don’t appreciate what you’re going through. When people say, oh, you have good days and bad days. You do. And a lot of days are bad days, but there’s some great days, but a great day for you may be a bad day for someone who’s fit. They don’t appreciate that either, really don’t see a lot of things. You know, I mean I have great days where I feel 100, but um, I’m not nowhere near it. Nowhere near it. That 100 is probably more like 40 to an able body person. And I don’t think that’s very much appreciated in with a lot of people even in this day and age where people are more aware of what’s going on with, with disability.
Rick Clement: And I, I get frustrated that people’s attitudes towards disability in terms of, and, and I think it’s not maybe, uh, some are bad people, but for the majority it’s just ignorance and Lack of knowledge and things. But, like, people will talk to anybody that’s with me. Who you think is my carer? I don’t actually have a carer, but that’s who they just presume. Ah, all sorts of. Just questions of, you know, that what you can do that. You know, it’s like, even, even. And I know this comes from a really nice place from people when the, uh, I’ll go to the gym and they’ll just come over and go, oh, wow, mate, that’s amazing that you’re in the gym. And I just think, no, it’s not. I’m just in the gym like you. It’s so different. But I do get what they mean by. I don’t take it bad, but I just wish they thought, oh, it’s Rick in the gym again, like that. That’s it. So I get frustrated with that, but I’ve learned to kind of just bat it off and not take it too personally. Um, I have chased one woman into Argos who had a go at me for parking in a, uh, Blue Badge space because she didn’t have the decency to just ask the question and started pointing and making faces at me. So she was quite shocked when I got out my car in a wheelchair and chased after.
Cathy Bayford: I did that to a chap in Tesco. So it’s obviously a lot of it
Steve Evans: around my parked in disabled spaces, obviously registered disabled. And there’s someone pulled up next to you and you’ve seen them get out the car and run into the shop and you’re like, you’re fuming. You’re fuming. You want to say something, but you don’t know their situation sometimes. Because not all disabilities are visible as we know. And they might be having a good day. Exactly.
Cathy Bayford: Sometimes I wonder whether it’s, uh, our, uh, uh, forces mentality that. That. That keeps us going like we do. I’ve seen some of my disabled colleagues who were seem, uh, really down in the mouth a lot of the time. Whereas I try and not let it hold me back. It’s not going to stop me. Um, I want to go to the football. If it means I’m gonna have to use my wheelchair, then I’m going to use it. I’m not thinking what I can’t do. Thinking what I can do.
Rick Clement: Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. Cafe. I think it’s just a mentality difference, isn’t it, that the military does just teach you you go through difficult times, there’s things you have to get through that maybe you didn’t think you could get through and so you take that into civilian life, into being disabled and everything.
Joseph Crabtree: Was there a moment for each of you when you felt we’ve, we’ve talked about two kinds of change in there but that your identity changed either because you’d left the armed forces, uh, or because she’d become disabled? Perhaps both. Rick, I don’t know if you’ve got thoughts on that.
Rick Clement: It took me a while to reconnect with the old me, I think after the injuries. But no, I’m like, I’m still in my head, um, 25 year old, fighting fit soldier sometimes that uh, has to be reigned in for me. All good. But that’s where I’m at. Like you’ll never take that, that away from me and you know, I wouldn’t want that either. Um, you know I love fighting for me independence, trying to push the boundary. This weekend I’ve just done a five kilometre swimming window here for charity because uh, I like to set goals, I like to try and give back to the charities that have supported me and you know, it’s just try and live life.
Joseph Crabtree: And Cathy, do you think there was any change to your identity again?
Cathy Bayford: Because I had that, that period of time out of the workplace for so long, um, it was almost a transition period then it was just for me it was um, getting used to a new working environment after being in the forces for, you know, for 20 years perhaps. One of the things that I can say is um, getting involved with the disabled supporter side of stuff is that when we moved from Upton park to the new stadium we knew that was afoot. The club were asking for people to get involved in supporter consultation in my little areas in the disabled um, section, the Berlin and everyone was grumbling about um, what was the sight line going to be. We’re gonna have to look over this running track and you know, I’m not gonna be able to see and I want this kind of seat when I get there and what’s going to happen. And they were all grumbling and thought you can grumble away or you can get involved and see what’s going on. And I think that was where my forces head came in. It was, I’m going to problem solve this, I’m going to move this forward and make this work. I’m not just sit back and let it fail. We’re going to make it work. And you know, perhaps, uh, perhaps that’s the forces side of me coming out.
Joseph Crabtree: And for you Steve, do you think an impact on Your identity.
Steve Evans: It was uh, after ended up in Makoma and I came out of hospital then, you know, I was quite positive at first when I came out I thought I’ll get over this, I’ll recover, I’ll get back to normal. But it never happened. And then I hit a, a brick wall basically and like I went down in the gutter. I was in a bad place basically. Didn’t want to know, didn’t want to do anything. I was completely different person, completely different. I just give up and just didn’t want to know, didn’t want to do anything or anything. And it was like that, uh, for best part of six months to a year, maybe longer, maybe 18 months. And then it was a case of I need to do something about this, you know. And that’s when you force his training comes into a certain extent. You know, let’s, let’s do it. It’s a can do attitude. And went out there and got involved with lots of voluntary organisations and got involved with Liverpool Football Club. I was on the DSA at the time. I was also on a uh, supporters forum with them. Um, I was the compare for other parties, the disabled supporters parties. Uh, you know, I was secretary of the DSA at one point and uh, I was doing all sorts. I was never a day went by where it wasn’t doing anything and it’s still a little bit like that now. But I’ve had to rein it in a bit because as Rick said, you feel like 25 in your head. But my body feels like I’m 65. Well it is, it’s a bit older than that anyway. But I am a bit older and I’ve got to slow down a little bit doing too much. I got involved so heavily with so many volunteer projects and other things doing too much. But I did have that. My identity just dropped through the floor 2009 pretty much after uh, when I was recovering.
Joseph Crabtree: So it sounds like it kind of came at different moments but for each of you there’s a moment maybe there was a change there and then a realisation. No, I’m, I’m still me. And the thing I’m getting echoing right across the board is, is that proactive nature and uh, a desperate urge to do something and be productive uh, in how you go about things. In a lot of the cases that that’s linking into sport again. So it’s already been touched on what kind of role did sport play on. On the transition to life with disability, uh, and then going back to the camaraderie point. Do you think sports replaced any part of the camaraderie you experienced in the armed forces or is that a very different thing?
Rick Clement: For me it’s, it’s very different. I have a relationship with the people I serve and stuff that I would just wouldn’t be able to replicate in sports. But that’s not to say that I haven’t got a different but very great relationship with the other, uh, you know, a lot of the other disabled members in particular because I sit, sit with them and we meet in the ability suite beforehand and stuff like that, uh, that. So there’s, there’s camaraderie and, and brilliant times there at the sports and there’s that emotional attachment on the results and we’re all in it in a collective willing for the win and all that stuff. So that’s great but it’s just separate from, from my armed forces me, if, if that sounds right.
Cathy Bayford: Yeah, I’m pretty much the same really. What you said earlier about wanting to be involved and, and perhaps I see myself there really that I’m perhaps doing too much, getting too involved. I mean I’ve been part of the DSA for, it’ll be ten years. Um, and I know that it takes up a lot of my time but I want to be proactive and we’ve made changes and, and working within a small group with the other guys on the, on the dsa, I suppose I’m, I’m still clinging to that camaraderie that, that we were talking about earlier. I brought that back that we can still have a bit of a banter, um, and have a bit of a chat about hierarchy and stuff like that that we used to do not get into trouble.
Joseph Crabtree: So within that I guess what does attending live sport give you that you might struggle to find elsewhere? So what is it about those match days that you maybe don’t find anywhere
Steve Evans: else, Steve, belonging to that organisation going along and gives you something to do as well. And I know that sounds a little bit lame. Give you something to do. I mean uh, it’s something you want to do..
Steve Evans: It’s a strong bond, isn’t it? And that’s, that’s what keeps you going.
Cathy Bayford: You’re with like minded people, aren’t you?
Steve Evans: Yeah. Yeah. So there’s a lot of similarities with the army, isn’t it? Or with the forces. It’s just it. But it’s different.
Rick Clement: It feeds into the tribalistic nature that we have as human beings as well of all getting together and uh, a common cause and the Emotions up and down and, you know, being in those big stadiums with the atmosphere and everything still, you know, 30 odd years on from starting to support the team, I get the hairs on the back of my neck when I go out and into pitch time and stuff.
Joseph Crabtree: I think that’s it. You, you’re crucially all touching on that sense of belonging, that collective experience, uh, that, that you’re having now. We, we pleased to be doing this episode focused, um, on armed forces looking to go out for Armed Forces Day. And that’s about recognising service people. If you look towards those fellow supporters we were just talking about, what would you like your fellow supporters and clubs themselves to better understand, uh, about disabled veterans and former service personnel? If we kick off with you, Cathy,
Cathy Bayford: the transition thing, isn’t it? I mean everyone, um, we’re talking about you. You can’t get a season ticket because you’re, you’re away from home or you’re away from, from your team’s team’s home. And perhaps if there were some way that clubs could help, there’s some sort of, um, process in helping those coming out to get tickets, if not a season ticket. I’m not asking to jump queues or anything, but perhaps to make it a little bit easier. I think that would be really good. The more support we can give our veterans the better. And if football can play a small part in that football. Now we’re recognising mental health issues which is so big for veterans now. Now, um, that perhaps there’s some work that can be done with football clubs and with veterans. You see a lot with different disabilities. You see the clubs working with different disabilities. Well, perhaps we could promote clubs working with veterans a little bit more. I think Villa offered, um, season tickets, um, a season ticket price range, I believe, for those serving. So there are ways and means that clubs could help. It can help readjust you to civilian street.
Steve Evans: Cathy touched on it there. I mean it’s getting. Once you come out of the forces, uh, and you’re a vet and trying to get into the system or say if it’s West Ham, Man United or Liverpool and you want to get on their ticket list, it’s very difficult when you first come out and you’re an outsider and trying to look in and there is, does need to be some support there. So support from clubs with vets may be a good option. Doesn’t have to be prices. Prices would be nice. You know, it’d be nice to be recognised like they are in America. It is, it is A good feeling when you get that, you know, so that would be good. Uh, my gym does it. I get a cheap membership for my gym because X Forces, which I think is good, a couple of quid a month, it makes all the difference. You know what I mean? Maybe clubs could, could do something like that and uh, embrace veterans more. They probably don’t even know their veterans are most clubs, I wouldn’t have thought.
Cathy Bayford: Recognise that we’ve served our country, really.
Steve Evans: Yeah.
Rick Clement: Steve and Cathy have covered most of the main things. I think they need to treat it much like with disability in terms of they need to understand the challenges that armed um, Forces veterans have both in day to day life and for accessing football seasons. Getting season tickets would be a big one of those after. So could there be a scheme where they can put the name down while they’re still serving and then they notify the club when they get out and therefore they’ve kind of been on that list for. There’s lots of ideas. You could sit all day and come up with it. But um, the other side I’d like to see is. And some, some of the clubs are already doing it fantastically well but like the foundations and the community stuff being done, um, and not like Man United for example, only work with you. So they don’t do anything for the armed Forces veterans. And I’d love to see that uh, uh, that pick up because, wow, there’d be thousands and thousands around the Manchester area. Whereas here where I live in Fleetwood, they have fantastic programmes and walk and talk sessions, coffee mornings, veterans, football teams, loads of stuff going on. Um, so that I’d love to see more of that done by all the
Joseph Crabtree: football teams in terms of some individualised points. I know Rick, you got invited down to the training ground to share a little bit of your experience. How did you find the. The reception was on that visit, if you’re happy to share a little bit about it with us.
Rick Clement: Yeah, yeah. I was lucky enough that um, at the dinner, Ollie going to Solstreams, their manager was speaking and I just basically said oh, I’ll do a bit of public speaking and if you want me to come along, I’m happy to Ollie style. He said yeah, yeah, I’ll get your number. And actually happened uh, just before COVID as well luckily. But that, that was really great just to go down and. And I just spoke about my time in the military, the mentality and the similarities between soldiers and football players. A lot of people will be like what like. But I talked about how when they leave football. How do they. They get that feeling of being on the pitch and scoring a goal again. It’s very similar to how a soldier misses, you know, live fire in the adrenaline. Very different situations, but very similar, um, in terms of a lot of footballers end up spending money, gambling and drink and things like that. So I was just sort of talked about the, the commonality there between us and then, and about the positive mindset of, like, how someone like me had overcome my injuries meant they could overcome things in their life because they’ll go through their own challenges of family being ill or, uh, maybe a severe injury that puts them out the gate for a while and all sorts. So they took it really well. And, um, I still. A lot of the players, I mean, there’s not that many of them still there now, but players like, uh, Bruno had just signed and he, he still remembers me and, um, you know, always gives us a wave. So that, that meant at least they listened.
Joseph Crabtree: That was your advice for the players, then. Uh, if you. There was any advice for a veteran who might be listening to this episode, I guess, perhaps struggling with the idea of, of isolation around disability and adapting to life after being in the armed forces, um, what would you advise to them be now?
Rick Clement: There’s loads of stuff out there. Um, if it’s something medical, go and see GP and ask about courage. Um, they do that in the nhs, but that’s specifically for armed forces veterans. If it’s out in the. In general society, maybe it’s. They need money for bills or some support of some kind. Some advice then. People like the British Legion, Safra and all those are all out there. So I would just say definitely do a bit of searching and if you’re struggling, where to go? Um, um, councils have armed forces champions, football clubs have veterans, welfare officers and stuff now. So I’ll just have a look in your local area and see who’s the right person to, to kind of advise you.
Joseph Crabtree: What advice would you have, Kathy?
Cathy Bayford: Yeah, pretty much the same, really. I think it’s being brave enough to make that step and perhaps admitting that you’re struggling, um, is a big step and, um, there’s certainly a lot of support out there. Royal, um, British Legion certainly helped me. Um, and there’s lots of separate charities as well now that have popped up. So don’t be alone. Um, there is support out there and if it’s with your football club and you’re disabled, then most, you know, most clubs do have disabled supporters associations now, so try and link up and you never Know what you might find yourself doing, getting involved in.
Steve Evans: Couldn’t agree more with both of you. Rick and Cathy, uh, you’ve said it all, really. Safa, the British Legion, the charities that are out there, uh, making the NHS aware and your GP that you are a vet, because they recognise these, as you’ve said with that off, courage. But I do think an important part of, uh, those coming out of the forces before they leave is to make sure you do lots of research into Civie Street. I mean, it sounds daft, but research into what you’re getting into and what you might need to do at least six months before and just, just contact organisations like the British Legion, Saffron, how can you support me? What can you do for me? I mean, it all helps because you will not. Some people just really, really struggle when they get out and they just don’t know where to go. And you’ve heard the sad storeys of what happens to some vets and it’s not clever, is it? They just fall apart. They don’t know what to do. They don’t have the support. And it’s about making them aware that the support is there as well.
Joseph Crabtree: We’ve spoken a lot about belonging and identity today and I think if I was to introduce any of you free to someone, it would be as a Liverpool football fan, a West Ham fan and a Man United fan before it was anything else. But I guess then, just as a final question to each of you, what does football mean to you today?
Steve Evans: Well, the whole life revolves around football. I mean, it might be a bit sad to say it, but my diary is all about Liverpool Football Club and anyone who has, wants to see me or arrange, uh, to go out with my partner, for example. It’s like, what are Liverpool doing that day? It’s all based around the club. Football is my priority. It always has been. Everyone else comes second and sadly to say, but, yeah, that’s how it is.
Cathy Bayford: Yeah, it’s the same. Well, West Ham family, it’s what we like to promote. And, um, you know, I sit on the fan Advisory Board. Um, a, uh, week doesn’t go by that I haven’t got a zoom. Ah, if it’s not with them, it’s with the dsp. I’m on the various subcommittees that come off that you talk about working around the calendar. My mum has, um, the West Ham fixtures on her calendar, so she knows when we’re available or when we’re not, or in fact, when she’s got to look after the dog for us or not. So, um, you know, our friends know that probably our social calendar will take priority for the games first, before anything else, so they know what to arrange.
Joseph Crabtree: And for you, Rick, what does football mean to you today?
Rick Clement: It’s been everything. This last, um, nine years on the committee for Moza. Last year, the last 12 months, I helped run it as secretary. Um, to the point, to be honest, I. I’ve took a bit of a step back now. I’ve stepped off the. The committee for just some space because football was my entire life. And much like the other two, I was like, oh, well, if there’s a United match on Mum, no, it don’t matter. It’s your birthday, you know, all those things. So I decided to kind of prioritise my, My family and my dog a little bit more. But it’s. It’ll still be a huge, huge point because I just love going. I just love seeing the people there and the joy it gives you and. And, yeah, you know, it’s disappointing when you lose. But, um, as I’ve got older, I’ve got better at that. Definitely. It’s just about the old, the whole occasion and like I said, the atmosphere when you go to the games and you’re there.
Joseph Crabtree: I think that’s three people waiting for the end of the off season already. But yeah, thank you all for joining us, uh, for this special edition of the Level Playing Field podcast. Your insights have been really interesting and I’m sure valuable to many of the listeners. If anyone listening did enjoy this episode, then be sure to let us know. Ah, and remember to get in touch about your experiences at live sporting events over the summer.